Veterans Group Offers Guidance to Military Service Members Resisting Illegal Iran War Orders

Interview with Gerry Condon, a Vietnam-era veteran and war resister, former president and current national board member of Veterans For Peace, conducted by Scott Harris

refuse illegal orders

Gerry Condon assesses the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran from the perspective of veterans and active-duty service members, some of whom are now seeking advice on how to follow the protocol to disobey illegal orders and apply for conscientious objector status.

Condon is a Vietnam-era veteran and war resister, former president and current national board member of Veterans For Peace.

SCOTT HARRIS: Right now, I’m very happy to welcome to our program Gerry Condon, a Vietnam era veteran and war resister, former president and current national board member of Veterans for Peace and president of the Golden Rule Committee and a member of the crew that sailed the Golden Rule Sailboat to Cuba some years ago. Gerry, thanks so much for making time to come on our program tonight.
GERRY CONDON: Thank you, Scott. That was great that you started out with a great song from David Rovicks, one of my musical heroes. And I’d actually like to start out by giving a big shoutout to our dear friend, another musical hero, fellow veteran, Country Joe McDonald, who just left this world a couple weeks ago. And with your indulgence, I’m going to sing the first verse of his famous anti-Vietnam War song.

SCOTT HARRIS: Yes.
GERRY CONDON: Feel like I’m fixing to die rag.

SCOTT HARRIS: Yeah. No, go right ahead. I think that’s great.

GERRY CONDON: Come on all, you big, strong men. Uncle Sam needs your help again. He’s got himself in a terrible jam. Way down yonder in Iran. So put down your books and pick up a gun. We’re going to have a whole lot of fun. And it’s one, two, three. What are we fighting for? Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn. Next stop is Iran. And it’s five, six, seven. Open up the pearly gates. Well, there ain’t no time to wonder why. Whoo-pee, we all going to die.

SCOTT HARRIS: You got a career in music coming up, Gerry. Thank you.
GERRY CONDON: Yeah, Maybe so. Maybe so. I’m channeling Country Joe, but I’m sure he would appreciate it. U.S. imperialism is on a global rampage right now under the Trump-Rubio-Hegseth administration. They started out the year on the 3rd of January by attacking Venezuela, killed hundreds of people, kidnapped its president, Nicolas Máduro and his wife, Cilia Flores. We’re now sitting in a Brooklyn jail awaiting trial on trumped up charges. The U.S. is holding a gun at Venezuela’s head while stealing its oil. I just returned from a peace movement delegation to Venezuela a couple weeks ago. And I saw the damage that was done by the U.S. missiles and bombs, one of which fell very close to a nuclear reactor and could have been a huge disaster. And of course, now we have this illegal aggression by the U.S. and Israel against Iran, trying to achieve regime change there, or if not that, to totally destroy the Iranian nation.
It’s not going very well. And as Iran has been hitting back a lot harder than they thought they’d be able to. But now Trump is doubling down on failure and defeat by escalating a war. It is not only illegal, immoral and based on lies, it’s also unwinnable. Sending U.S. troops into Iran will be a terrible disaster. Many troops are bound to be killed or maimed and scarred for life. Furthermore, this could turn into another forever war. Once you’ve got troops on the ground fighting and dying, they’ll just want to double down even more. A forever war like the one that Trump said he’d never get us into could be an ongoing deep disaster, not only for the people of Iran and the region, but really for the entire world. Many experts are now actually worrying about the possibility of a world war and even a nuclear war.

Trump and Netanyahu both have nuclear weapons at their disposal and they’re both desperate enough and crazy enough to use them. So that’s why Veterans for Peace has been calling on members of the military, our sisters and brothers, children and grandchildren, to refuse illegal orders to participate in this illegal war, to do the right thing by the Constitution and to do the right thing for their own survival and welfare.

So Veterans for Peace has been putting up billboards outside military bases around the country, calling on people to refuse illegal orders and directing them to places like the Center on Conscience and War, which can help people get discharged as even “honorably discharged as conscientious objectors.” And I’ve got a phone number here I can share with people a little bit later.

SCOTT HARRIS: Yeah, we certainly want to do that. And yeah, I want to talk about conscientious objectors and what the obstacles that face people who face a moral quandary about participating in an illegal war. But I wanted to ask you, before we get there, on the question that you mentioned a moment ago. Why do you think the United States, Donald Trump, Pete Hegseth, the self-declared secretary of war, didn’t have the common sense to prepare for what everyone in the world had expected might be Iran’s reaction to an US-Israeli war on their homeland and certainly the assassination of their leaders. And that would be the closing down of the Strait of Hormuz as a leverage point, really for the entire world in terms of price spike of oil and an interruption in supply of oil all over the globe. What do we owe that lack of preparedness to, do you think?

GERRY CONDON: Well, that’s a very good question, Scott. And I can only assume it’s just these people are not qualified to be in the position they’re in. They weren’t listening to the advice of their own intelligence sources and even of the Pentagon, some of whom advised against this.

Trump had a nice, pretty easy time with his attack on Venezuela and somehow thought he was convinced by … I’m told, by Mossad, the head of Israeli intelligence, Mossad, convinced both Netanyahu and Trump that the Iranian regime was just … the Islamic Republic was just a house of cards and just a little bit of a blow would kill their supreme leader, their religious and spiritual leader and political leader, and a lot of other leadership. The whole regime would collapse. Well, that’s turned out not to be true at all.

So they’re just not living in the real world. But I have to also comment, Scott, that’s what the mainstream media and a lot of the politicians are talking about. Why weren’t they more prepared? Why didn’t they realize that Iran would shut down the Strait of Hormuz, et cetera? And while that is an important question, it kind of avoids the question of the legality and immorality of this war. It’s a blatant war of aggression. It’s totally illegal. It’s a violation of the U.N. charter and it’s a violation of the U.S. Constitution as well.

It’s mass murder for whom? For Netanyahu and the Zionists who are carrying out genocide in Palestine and for U.S. imperial interest control of oil and to make the billionaires even more powerful and more rich at the expense of everybody else. And they’re really risking … They’re over their head this time, but unfortunately this war could bring them down, but there’s a danger they bring the rest of us down with them. So it’s a very, very dangerous moment. And I was really encouraged to see the No Kings marches and rallies around the country this weekend where the question of the war in Iran was a major question at every single rally, even though the national leadership and some of the Democratic party leadership of Indivisible wanted to play down the war and focus on domestic issues, such as, of course, the fascist stormtroopers of ICE terrorizing cities around the country. Those are really important issues.

But people made the connections between the rising fascism and authoritarianism in the U.S. and the emergence of even more aggressive imperialism and militarism around the world. And so this is the most unpopular war at this stage of the war, this early in the war, than any war in U.S. history. So hopefully we will see a lot of resistance both within the military and around the country beyond just the No Kings marches and rallies for people to continue to mobilize and continue to press the Congress, which has unfortunately taken a break right now. They were on the verge of submitting another war powers resolution when the Democrats decided to hold off and let things play out for a couple weeks while they’re back in their districts, not in Congress. So that’s a real problem. The opposition among the mainstream Democrats is a lot stronger than what we see manifesting in Congress.

SCOTT HARRIS: We’re speaking with Jerry Condon, Vietnam War veteran and war resister, former president and current national board member of Veterans for Peace. Gerry, I wanted to ask you about Veterans for Peace issuing a call for their members, friends and allies to resist this dangerous and illegal war while offering support to members of the military who decide to refuse illegal orders and resist participating in what many Americans believe is an illegal and immoral war. What kind of support is being offered—legal counseling help in applying for help for applying for conscientious objector status? Do we have any sense of how many members of the U.S. military may be now seeking assistance to opt out of this war in Iran?

GERRY CONDON: Yes. Well, it’s a very good and timely question, Scott. Members of the Armed Services have the right and the duty to resist and refuse illegal orders. And certainly, an order to participate in a blatantly illegal war of aggression is an illegal order. So Veterans for Peace has been directing people to a number of counseling agencies. We have the GI Rights hotline, the Military Law Task Force of the National Lawyers Guild, and also the Center on Conscience and War has been really out there letting people know that they do have legal alternatives to going to war. And as a matter of fact, they have a 877 number, Center on Conscience and War, 877-NO-2-WARS. And they are letting people know that if they apply for conscientious objector status because of their opposition to war—even their opposition to this war—not only do they have the opportunity to possibly get a discharge from the military, an honorable discharge or to be assigned to non-combat duties within the military. And even applying for conscientious objector status requires the military command to remove soldiers from combat duty while that is being heard.
So that’s one option people have. And there’s other options too. Some of them, of course, have some legal repercussions potentially, such as, for example, going AWOL. A lot of people did that during the Vietnam War. I was one of them, hundreds of thousands of people went AWOL and then most of them eventually turned themselves in, oftentimes with legal counseling and a lawyer to support them. And in most cases, they were just discharged from the military with maybe a less than honorable discharge or a general discharge. Some even got honorable discharges. So some of them actually, some people did go to jail for a few months, but we compare that to the possibility of having blood on your hands in an illegal war, knowing that you were responsible. One of the biggest problems that veterans from the Vietnam War and the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have today is they carry this not only PTSD, but what we call moral injury from having been complicit in the war that killed innocent people—men, women and children.
So there are alternatives and Veterans for Peace is among those organizations that will support people, both legally, politically and moral support, and point them in the right direction. And I would say check out Center on Conscience and War, also the GI Rights hotline. You can go to GIRightshotline.org, and they also have an 877 number that people can call for free counseling and to learn about what their legal alternatives are. But if I was in the military today, I would be doing anything I could, whether it was applying for conscientious objective status or just going and taking a little vacation for a while to avoid being part of what promises to be a bloodbath in Iran.

SCOTT HARRIS: Well said, Gerry. I’ll just end with this. We’re almost out of time, but Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, the self-declared secretary of war, he prayed at the Pentagon just over the weekend and he prayed for U.S. troops to deliver overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy. Remarks that were condemned by Pope Leo. And Pope Leo said, “God refuses the prayers of leaders who have hands full of blood” in what appeared to be a direct rebuke from Pope Leo to many Trump administration officials, including “Secretary of War” Pete Hegseth, who’ve invoked religious rhetoric to justify their war with Iran. Almost turning this into a holy war. It’s really obscene and despicable.
GERRY CONDON: Well, it’s very scary. Pete Hegseth, he’s a crusader. He’s a Christian nationalist, extremist and a fascist basically. And that’s the kind of people that are surrounding Trump these days. And it’s a very scary time. We got to get rid of these people. And so I just want to say, since we’re running out of time that I encourage people to check out Veterans for Peace. Our numbers are growing fast these days. We’ve just added 800 members in the last few months.
Unfortunately, we always kind of grow at a time of war. So a lot of younger veterans are joining Veterans for Peace. We also have non-veteran members, by the way. About 20 percent of our members are non-veterans who just want to help lift up the voices of veterans who oftentimes they’re family members and friends, but not necessarily. So if people go to veteransforpeace.org, they can learn more about our organization. There’s also right on the homepage information about how to refuse illegal orders, where to go to get counseling information and a lot of reasons why the war in Iran, the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran is totally illegal and unjustifiable and should be resisted.

SCOTT HARRIS: Jerry, thanks for spending time with us on Counterpoint tonight. Appreciate all the important work you do and veterans—
GERRY CONDON: My pleasure. Thank you, Scott.

SCOTT HARRIS: Veteransforpeace.org is where people can get more info, what we’ve been talking about tonight, right? Okay. Jerry, thank you. We’ll stay in touch.
GERRY CONDON: Thanks so much, Scott, for all your good work. Makes a big difference. 

SCOTT HARRIS: Take care, Jerry. Goodnight. Bye-bye. Gerry Condon, Vietnam era veteran and war resister, former president and current national board member of the group, Veterans for Peace. This is Counterpoint.

Subscribe to our Weekly Summary