[Producer’s note: Due to a phone system failure during production, the audio quality of this interview segment is substandard. Apologies to all of our BTL affiliates and listeners.]
President Biden announced on July 7 that he’s authorized the delivery of cluster munitions to Ukraine, despite the fact that 123 nations around the world signed the 2008 convention to ban the use of these weapons, including many of Washington’s NATO allies. Cluster bombs that can be fired from the air, ground or sea, release tens or hundreds of explosive bomblets that kill indiscriminately. Unexploded bomblets or duds can remain in the ground of former battlefields for years or decades where civilian victims of random explosions are often children.
President Biden justified delivery of U.S.-made cluster munitions, saying that Ukraine’s military was running out of conventional artillery shells during their current counteroffensive, both Ukraine and Russia have already been using cluster bombs in the 18-month long war and that Ukraine’s government has pledged to only use these weapons on their own territory.
Between The Lines’ Scott Harris spoke with Daryl Kimball, executive director of the Arms Control Association, who talks about why his group and other human rights organizations worldwide oppose President Biden’s decision to transfer U.S. cluster bombs to Ukraine and pending legislation in Congress that would block the transfer of these weapons.
DARYL KIMBALL: The war of Russia against Ukraine over the last 18 months has already been a brutal struggle that has killed so many and damaged much of Ukraine and our main concern here is that we see the supply by the United States to Ukraine of these particularly nasty kinds of weapons as posing additional risk to civilians, not just in the war now, but in the weeks and the months and years afterwards because of the unique characteristics of cluster munitions and the tens of millions of submunitions that are likely to be added to the unexploded ordnance across the battlefields in Eastern Ukraine.
And so, you know, we understand and appreciate the rationale of the Biden administration for supplying Ukraine with the ammunition it needs to defend itself against Russian aggression. But, we think that the United States and allies of Ukraine should focus on supplying Ukraine with what are called military munitions, precision munitions that don’t have the high dud rate of cluster munitions, which are indiscriminate and create a lot of dud, or unexploded munitions.
So that’s why we’re concerned. That’s why we oppose this. Let me stop there.
SCOTT HARRIS: President Biden and those in his administration and those who support this move on cluster bombs talk about the supplying of cluster munitions to Ukraine as only a temporary measure until more of the 155-millimeter conventional artillery shells are available. They talk about the fact that both Russia and Ukraine have used cluster bombs over the last 18 months of this war and we’re told Ukraine will only use the weapons on their own territory and therefore they have plans to clean up those duds that are so lethal, especially for children and other civilians.
DARYL KIMBALL: Well, that’s the argument. I mean, in the most compelling part of that, the only compelling part is that the Ukrainian forces are short of the conventional ammunition that it has been expending at very high rates in this war. The supply of these cluster munitions is going to lead to a larger number of unexploded ordnance in Ukraine. And that is going to be a legacy of this war that is going to last for a very long time.
Just because the Russians have been using cluster munitions provides no justification for the United States to supply Ukraine with these munitions. And the Biden administration is arguing that Russian cluster munitions have a 30 to 40 percent dud rate, that is, for every 100 submunitions that are scattered across a field, there are going to be 30 to 40 that don’t explode and that will explode later if somebody comes into contact with them.
The U.S. dud rate is less than 2.5 percent of the total. That is, quite frankly, baloney because the U.S. estimates are based upon field experiments in highly-controlled testing environments. People who worked in the Department of Defense estimate that the actual dud rate is somewhere around 10 to 24 percent. So this means that there’ll be far more unexploded weapons on the battlefields in Ukraine than the Biden administration is claiming.
SCOTT HARRIS: Democratic Rep. Sarah Jacobs and Rep. Ilhan Omar have introduced an amendment to the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act that would block the U.S. transfer of cluster bombs to Ukraine. Tell us more about that.
DARYL KIMBALL: Yeah. Also, this is a last minute effort to try to block this. I think this is an important debate to have in Congress because Congress has itself put restrictions on the transfer of cluster munitions with a failure rate with greater than 1 percent. So that’s what the Biden administration is sending, weapons with a higher failure rate. If this amendment is allowed to be voted on the floor, it’s going to be a close vote.
This could be something that the president decides to veto. But I think this is an important lesson for members of Congress to express their skepticism or concern about the United States transferring these very nasty and prohibited cluster munitions to Ukraine.
Listen to Scott Harris’ in-depth interview with Daryl Kimball (11:36) and see more articles and opinion pieces in the Related Links section of this page.
For the best listening experience and to never miss an episode, subscribe to Between The Lines on your favorite podcast app or platform: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Tunein + Alexa, Castbox, Overcast, Podfriend, iHeartRadio, Castro, Pocket Casts, RSS Feed.
Or subscribe to our Between The Lines and Counterpoint Weekly Summary.
